September 5, 2007Ask Meryl - difficulty in communicating with women
Meryl,
I met a really attractive and intelligent woman at a party a few weeks ago. We had been talking for a good half hour and really seemed to be hitting it off. Then, things suddenly went downhill. I commented that she had a “nice, full, hourglass figure”. I thought she would take it as a compliment. Instead, she became deeply offended. She snapped, “Oh really….well perhaps I should do some plus size modeling!”, and then she slapped my face and departed.
I will never forget those agonizing moments in the immediate aftermath…the sound of her high heels hitting the hard wood floor as she walked off in a huff…the murmur of the crowd…the looks and stares of onlookers as I’m standing there alone rubbing my cheek. Needless to say, it was not my proudest moment, LOL.
She had the classic figure of a 50’s pinup - large bust, narrow waist, shapely hips/legs. I guess she had interpreted “hourglass” as meaning big/overweight/full figured. I just thought it meant shapely and well proportioned.
When I told a female friend about this she shook her head and said it was never a good idea to comment on a woman’s figure, even if I thought it was complimentary. What do you think about this?
Meryl says,
Here’s what I think.
1) Your comment was inappropriate.
2) She could have let you know more gracefully.
3) She did you a favor.
1) While I disagree with your friend’s contention that you should never comment on a woman’s figure, it isn’t something to do casually and before there is a sense of trust. In my opinion the comment was too intimate for the level of connection you had. It sounds like she objected to your wording more than the fact that you referred to her shape so early in the conversation. Either way, it’s better to build more slowly toward personal comments.
2) I advocate teaching people how to treat us and maintaining boundaries, but I advocate doing it graciously. If she didn’t appreciate your comments, she could have told you. I expect you would have gotten the message.
3) When I say she did you a favor, I’m not referring to the fact that she taught you something you’ll never forget, I’m referring to the fact that she seems reactive, and it’s much nicer to find that out before you become emotionally entangled.
I am impressed with the detailed way you described the scene. You brought me there. You write well.
I hope you don’t let this experience shut you down in the future.
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OUCH! Sorry, but I couldn’t control my laughter on this one. I do feel sorry for the guy, since he seemed well intentioned. But the word “full” is truly the kiss of death when you’re describing a woman’s figure. From her vantage point, I think I would have been similarly offended. I would love to have been a fly on the wall to have witnessed the slap across the face…it’s always something I’ve fantasized about doing…his facial expression must have been priceless. Better luck next time sport, and put some ice on that cheek
Ericka
Comment by Ericka — September 8, 2007 @ 12:09 pm
To most women the offense seems obvious - but I mentioned the question to my husband who had no idea why the woman was offended! I passed that back to the man who wrote the question, who replied -
“This is probably more a case of “male minds think alike” rather than “great minds think alike.”
Which is why I recommend educating instead of punishing whenever possible.
Comment by merylrunion — September 8, 2007 @ 4:55 pm
Yes indeed, I think he genuinely meant well. It’s really good that he contacted you. You gave him such a helpful response that was presented in a thorough, gentle way. He may also be very young. And in reality, it’s rather unfair that men have to deal with so many women who are hypersensitive about their bodies. But unfortunately, I’ve been guilty of this in the past myself.
The other weird thing is that women are probably much less defensive when the comments are coming from another woman, rather than a man. Of the female friends I have who are curvy (not fat), I’m pretty sure they would not be offended if I told them they were voluptuous or curvaceous. But, if these comments were coming from a guy that they had just met at a party, then they would most likely be offended, and a well placed slap on the cheek would not be out of the realm of possibilities.
Ericka
Comment by Ericka — September 8, 2007 @ 7:34 pm
Oh, one more thing. I hope I didn’t sound like I was making light of things. The poor fellow may have been traumatized by that slap. It would be a shame if his confidence with women was ruined by one bad experience.
Ericka
Comment by Ericka — September 8, 2007 @ 8:18 pm
I’d like to throw my $.02 into this discussion to say that “educating” folks is a great thing.
I suggest we start by teaching young women how to dress appropriately. I do not enjoy being served a meal while wondering if the tail of one of the fried shrimp is going to get caught on the navel ring so blatantly displayed with an ample section of bare stomach.
I think it’s silly that women expect most men to say NOTHING when a women is dressed like a whore or a man’s idea of what a whore looks like). I think it’s absurd that women don’t take their own in hand and teach them a thing or two about how to present themselves in public.
I agree that men need to weigh their compliments with caution and restraint (something we don’t do well most of the time).
But why applaud a woman who dresses to enhance her figure for slapping someone who complimented her on it? Why shouldn’t see try some non-violent educating if the compliments she so desperately seems to want turn out to be a little crass.
And women: Don’t slap men. It’s vulgar.
Comment by Ron Pulliam — September 11, 2007 @ 10:40 am
Amen, Ron! Just as the young woman in the airplane learned, there are limits. As a result of this little interchange here on SpeakStrong, Meryl, I am going to start speaking strong to my college students who are dressed inappropriately. I don’t mind them coming into class with extensive cleavage showing, but I will start educating them that in the workplace this can and most likely will backfire on them. It will also give some young men the wrong idea about their own personal values.
Comment by slccom — September 11, 2007 @ 12:27 pm
Talk about weapons of mass destruction - the human tongue has toppled empires and shaped history. Let’s face it. Sometimes we are just stupid about what we say. The rules of etiquette from earlier times were designed to help people make their way through the quagmire of human ego and sensitivity. Like not talking about politics or religion. Like speaking to folks more formally until invited to do otherwise. Surely this guy knows that different men are attracted to different looking female figures? So why would he assume HIS taste would be the standard for all society?
On a lighter note, I can really empathize. In my younger “come hither” days, I was anxious for a more intimate level of friendship with a young man, and I - based on my own insensitivity, inexperience, and presumptiveness - made what I thought were light hearted comments about certain aspects of his way of dressing and what I thought they revealed about his personality. Turns out I had touched on a very vulnerable spot in his personal struggles, and the next time I saw him a few yards away on a busy campus, he actually turned the other way to avoid me. I’d rather he would have slapped me. But I certainly learned my lesson about commenting on anyone’s appearance. For all but my nearest and dearest, and then only when specifically asked, I limit my comments to universally positive and non specific adjectives these days. Which seems to work well, so far.
Any by the way, some of those etiquette books are still available, and still effective.
Comment by Kathleen — September 15, 2007 @ 8:52 am
Ron, I agree with your comment, and education goes both ways. John Malloy of Dress for Success suggests that women don’t know the effect they have on men. I believe it’s true. My husband has done a good job of educating me about how men are likely to interpret my dress at times - outfits that seemed innocent enough to me.
A colleague of mine was talking about women who say they’re not interested but are sending all kinds of signals that they are - and I suggested to him that since men and women do think differently, I wouldn’t assume the intent.
Kathleen, I’m very curious about what you said to that man that scared him away!
Comment by merylrunion — September 15, 2007 @ 9:16 pm
What an interesting dialogue!
I would like to point out however, that the conversation has turned to how women dress, and how that can influence male/female interactions. Our original write NEVER mentioned anything about how his conversation partner was dressed. I think it is interesting that the reader comments quickly turned to this topic . I do feel that people should dress appropriately, however, how can we be sure that this applies in this situation?
I agree with Kathleen- it is not polite or appropriate to comment on anyone’s figure, male or female, unless you know them very well.
Finally, I agree that the woman who took offense may have reacted inappropriately. Slapping is not vulgar, it is violent. In my book, hitting someone is not an acceptable way to make a point.
Comment by Lindsey — September 18, 2007 @ 12:58 pm
Hello there, I’m none other than the original poster
I’ve really enjoyed reading the comments. I never expected this much feedback. To clear up some issues, the woman was not dressed provocatively at all…nothing that was especially tight fitting or revealing. I do agree that I didn’t deserved to be slapped, but it’s not like she inflicted serious physical pain; it was more the embarrassing than anything else. It’s the type of thing that you look back upon later and laugh.
Comment by Scott — September 18, 2007 @ 4:56 pm
Scott - I think the woman was out of order. I think all of us have been on the receiving end of compliments in the past that we did not view as particularly complimentary because they did not suit the aspect of ourselves that we wanted to enhance. Most women want to look slimmer than they actually are - to be reminded of one’s curvaceousness is not necessarily a compliment to the woman but does reflect a man’s pleasure in her form.
But a somewhat sideways compliment is never an insult and never deserves that sort of reaction. You obviously pressed a nerve (perhaps she had previously been overweight and was delighting in her slimmer shape) but don’t take it as a normal level of reaction. I and probably many other women would be delighted at being described as hourglass! I think the lady in question should be the one seeking help as to how to react appropriately.
Comment by Jenni — September 19, 2007 @ 2:07 am
Lindsey, GREAT CATCH on how the topic changed. I noticed that - and yet I went along with it and posted a comment about dress without any acknowledgment that it was a change in subject.
I see this as a good example of how conversations can get sidetracked without people even noticing.
And since this is a blog about Speaking Strong, we can count on someone to point out where and how the conversation gets derailed.
How women dress is an important topic too, but as Lindsey pointed out, it’s a side topic to the original post.
Lindsey, let’s see if our official blog reviewer votes for your post as the post of the week this week. It gets my vote.
Comment by merylrunion — September 20, 2007 @ 8:18 am
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